Transparent leadership in counseling with Jennifer Froemel

Dan King: [0:00] Hello, everyone. It is great to be with you again. And today I'm joined by Jennifer Fromel. She's the founder of Innovative Counseling Partners. She's an LCPC, and she's the host of the podcast, The Fear of Change. Jennifer, welcome. Jennifer Froemel: [0:15] Thank you. Glad to be here. Dan King: [0:16] So before recording, you told me you left the practice for three weeks and it wasn't on fire. How did you pull that off? Jennifer Froemel: [0:22] Well, I would say that this is probably year four of me leaving the practice for three weeks and not having it burned down. I think, honestly, it's been about me paying attention to things. And the thing that I think I would say I pay most attention to, so people who are practice owners, we have this thing that happens where we go, I don't wanna. And I don't wanna, I've recognized, is exactly what we should be looking at. And so I would say for the last four years, anytime I find myself saying, I don't wanna, or I hear one of my middle managers saying, I don't wanna, I go after whatever it is that we're, I'm not wanting. I would say in doing that, that has really improved so much of the flow of the practice. Not saying that, you know, there aren't little fires everywhere, all depending on who you are and what you're perceiving to be fire. But I think that that's probably the biggest, the biggest piece has been really Jennifer Froemel: [1:24] paying attention and tackling the I don't want to. Dan King: [1:26] Can you give us a memorable example of an I don't want to? Jennifer Froemel: [1:29] Probably my biggest problem was my billing team. I had a front-end team that would enter in client demographics, and I always felt that there was something amiss. But every time that I would address it, it got a little bit better for a short period of time, probably like five to six weeks, and then it would start sliding backwards again. But because, like I said, there's always little fires everywhere. Like so-and-so wants to take a vacation. So-and-so broke her leg. So-and-so, you know, has to, you know, take FMLA. I've been focusing so much on those things that like that front desk piece, I just would let it be. And I let it go like that for way too long because then what would happen is our billing was of course affected, right? Garbage in, garbage out. So I would have these conversations with my front people. They would get better, and then they would slowly slide backwards. And then I would spend hours a week chasing after claim, after claim, after claim. And at this point in time, you know, our practice is, you know, I would say on a monthly basis, we're billing about $700,000 a billing. So that's a lot of claims to chase after. And again, if all you're focused on is your revenue generation, you're really feeling like that, you know, head on a swivel, fight or flight experience. Jennifer Froemel: [2:57] So I think that my team and then, of course, switching billing services that are truly collaborative has been so impactful over the last year and a half. But I would say, like I said, over the last four years, when I would leave for those three weeks, I was like, all right, I'm checking everything. I'm battening down all the hatches. Like we've got fire extinguishers everywhere, you know, came back and it's OK. Yeah. Dan King: [3:23] Did you believe it would be OK before you left? Jennifer Froemel: [3:26] I wasn't sure. So, I mean, of course. Right. Like I have the travel pass on my phone and, you know, from my from my Internet and my cell service. So every single time I have it available, no matter where I am, what country I am. But the thing is, is, you know, when you're in the mountains, you know, you could be hiking in, you know, the Smoky Mountains and your self-service is, you know, crappy. You know, my last time in Nepal, when I was summiting Mira Peak, we had a client who committed suicide at the practice. I saw a text message because I still had service and I called the clinician from this remote region in Nepal in the Himalayas and I was able to process that with her. It didn't take much of my time, but I thought that it was well worth the 20 minutes to call her and process it a little bit with her. And then, you know, an hour later I was traveling out of there. But I think that's been the piece for me is like, I need to know that the things that I don't want to look at, I need to look at. And so now I'm having my middle managers function in the same way. And so, yeah, like I said, little fires everywhere all the time. But, they're just little fires and they're easily extinguished, which is wonderful. But back in the day, OMG, no, no. Dan King: [4:51] I'm sure it was worth 20 minutes and I'm sure the clinician was very grateful. I'm curious about how you trained your middle managers to confront their own I don't want us because it's human nature not to. Jennifer Froemel: [5:02] Well, I'm in the process of that, Dan. So don't give me too much credit just yet. What I've been doing like back again, four years ago, when I started to decide like I want to tempt the fates and go away for three weeks. I had a colleague of mine who had been consultatory and she had run a group practice, a large group practice before. So I retained her on my first my first attempt to leave for three weeks. She came in and just was like my backup. And then I also had at the time I had a business coach who also was willing to be a backup. Jennifer Froemel: [5:38] So that was kind of how I started to, you know, tiptoe into the pond was to be making sure that I had people that my team could go to that could think like me. And that was kind of the start of it. Since then, The I don't want a piece, I've really been having my team look at what are some of the issues that they have in terms of their functionality and their own, because all my middle managers and supervisors are clinicians here. So they know the system, they know the routine, and they know what to do to be a clinician, both in our softwares as well as with our clients. And so we've been really tackling one by one those clinicians concerned functioning, if you will. So people who are really great clinicians but suck at documentation, we've been working on how to make them not suck so bad with documentation. For the clinicians who are not great about keeping their schedules up, we have been doing more kind of executive coaching light to help them understand and see how that can be a real stick in the mud if they don't fix it, but that when it flows, they feel better. Jennifer Froemel: [6:54] And then the other thing that I've done is created kind of this culture of calm. I really have said, we don't email, we don't text unless it is like between normal business working hours between nine and six. I know normal business hours are five, but again, we're therapists and we see people after hours. What I've done is I've taught them all how to schedule send text messages so they don't forget to do it, but they schedule send it to land the next morning. And the same with their emails. I've been having them schedule send them to land the next morning at 8 a.m. Dan King: [7:27] So it sounds like, if I'm hearing correctly, one of the things that changed between version one of attempted escape versus some of these subsequent versions is this boundary around when communication happens and how to set these letter me later, email me later, text me later initiatives. Is that a fair, is that a big part of what's worked? Jennifer Froemel: [7:49] Definitely, definitely. And then I think on top of that, it's just been doing training with them. A colleague of mine who we've been, you know, in connection since 1995, she was a professor at NIU, Northern Illinois University, pretty much created their whole system, and then took it to Northwestern, and then took it to Chicago School, and then took it to Adler. And then I helped her escape academia and she's now got a small group practice. She is now helping provide supervision, training and guidance on a monthly basis to my team. Dan King: [8:26] I love that. I love that. And one other thing that comes up for me is the importance of trust in all of this. So I think most practice owners, even though they can want many different things out of their practice, they want a business that exists beyond themselves, right? So if it's a group practice, that means it's not all about you, right? It's about other clinicians. And trust is essential to make that work. You're trusting other clinicians. At very base, you're trusting other clinicians to see patients and care for them, right? And so it's a natural extension of the trust that is essential to the whole enterprise to be able to trust that what you have built can exist without burning down without you. Jennifer Froemel: [9:06] Yeah. And, you know, I've always believed very much in educational things, you know, like getting our clinicians the things that they need, getting them educated. And the supervisors have been no different. When we really started to expand and recognize I couldn't do it all, looking at some of my team and identifying with them, you know, what is it going to take? I actually developed kind of this clinical vignette that we go through. A question and answer kind of thing. And then I actually partnered with an ex-Google exec coach and we created a hiring rubric. And so I basically evaluated all of my teammates that were wanting to grow as supervisors and put them through the rubric. And here we are. And they went through the vignettes as well. Like, all right, well, they've passed all these things and then they're attending, you know, I think I have them attend 18 hours of CEUs. And then I'm like, okay, now go out into the world, but we're going to meet on a regular basis. So we meet monthly. And now I've added this past year, since January, we've had this educator of clinical supervisors who left academia. We have her on our team as well. Dan King: [10:24] You know, it's interesting you speak to the importance of coaching in creating Dan King: [10:27] the required trust to be free. Coaching and therapy overlap laugh in ways and other ways they don't, right? So I come from, among other things, the coaching perspective. And one of the most common, one of the most valued forms of coaching in the corporate world these days, you don't see it nearly as often in group practices, is the coaching of middle managers. So in a vast majority of cases, a middle manager in an organization has come from the front lines. So they are used to developing expertise and working in a particular role. and now all of a sudden they have to learn to lead and or manage people depending on your preference of word and the organization, it tends not to be a natural skill set in most cases. How natural is it for therapists, do you think? Jennifer Froemel: [11:11] I have to say I was really disappointed initially because I was expecting it to be quite natural. And then what I started to recognize was that it wasn't. So I would find myself taking them in. What I did for a little bit with each one of them was I would have them shadow me doing group supervision with our interns and was able to see just how much they didn't know, both in the way of recognizing that, you know, especially in this day and age, you know, where we're doing so much like we are today, right, through Zoom or some, you know, online format, that many of the clinical supervisors were not aware that their presence on camera, if it does not appear calming, it's agitating and distracting. Jennifer Froemel: [11:57] And so then how are you like, if you're not emulating what we're looking for in a clinician, how does that work? So I had to do a lot of education on like, how should you sit in front of your camera? What should you do while you are on camera? How should you look while you are on camera? And I thought, oh my gosh, I couldn't get over how, you know, at the beginning of COVID, I mean, I did a whole training, but again, like it's been time you know since that, And I just was like shocked about that. Then the other thing I was shocked about too was how many of them would kind of dial it in for lack of a better term. They would show up and they would do, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. How did that make you feel? And I was like, no, that's not what we're supposed to be doing. It's like supposed to be active guys. We're supposed to be giving feedback. We're supposed to be identifying. We're supposed to be checking in with them, not just like showing up on a camera saying, oh, wow. Yeah, that's tough. Oh gosh. Hmm. Wow. You know, and so I had to actually educate them on how to do that as well. I was shocked by that. Dan King: [13:05] How would you summarize the differences here? I want to go just a little bit deeper into this. So I'm a clinician. I've been working with clients full time for five years. What is the difference between the skills that I've likely developed versus what I would need to be a supervisor manager? Jennifer Froemel: [13:21] Well, I mean, first off, your clinical acquiescence also has to be that you understand a lot of different modalities of care. I mean, unless, of course, you're working at a practice that is just CDT focused, which we are not. We are integrative focused, which means you've got to know a lot. And if you don't know a lot, then you've got to go to our library and learn, which again, I've recognized some clinicians that are like, nah, not interested in learning that. I don't want to. which, you know, that's great. You're maybe a good clinician, just fine, but that's not where you belong here. So I would say that first off, it's really about not just knowing motivational interviewing and some CBT. It's really, and again, pending your practice type, but it's more about really being able to like check yourself and know kind of where you come from, know that you know enough about things, but not too much to where you think you know everything. And having the ability to also say, I'm not sure about that. Let me get back to you, right? And then go seek out, right, from colleagues, from me, from whomever, what is the answer? And being humble enough to recognize that, yes, while you were born and raised a therapist the way you were. Jennifer Froemel: [14:42] This is a different time and we're different providers now. The world has changed and that we need to be responsive to that and not just kind of get stuck in, well, back in the day. Yeah, I can back in the day until the cows come home, but that's not good enough. And in order to be a good clinician supervisor, you really have to be able to Jennifer Froemel: [15:03] do all of those things simultaneously and understand the HR things. You know, like again, if somebody says something and And you're like, your antenna goes up and is kind of freaked out. Jennifer Froemel: [15:15] That's usually an indicator that we probably need to talk to our attorney and or our HR person. Nonetheless, it's almost like the gray area of do I report something to DCFS or the police department. And so I've had to tell them that too. Like much like in our clinical work, we're like, we hear a parent talk about whipping their kid. And then we go, when you say whipping your child, like what do you mean by that and we're having to do the same thing as a clinical supervisor when you're hearing a clinician go yeah I just didn't do it okay well if they just didn't do it this time and you follow up the next time and they still didn't do it that's that's a red flag if nothing else that's a really dark orange flag on the verge of red that then needs to be addressed and again I think for many of the clinicians they're like I just want to be friends with the supervisees. Like they just need like a big brother, big sister. And I'm like, no, they don't. We are gatekeepers, my friend. Yeah. Dan King: [16:16] There's like a new set of boundaries they need to learn, right? Jennifer Froemel: [16:19] Yeah. Dan King: [16:20] So much of the work of therapy relates to boundaries. And here, I think if there's, you know, there's going to be inborn, there's going to be tendencies that everyone has in that respect, and they're going to have to relearn. I think I have to learn a new set of tendencies, a new identity. Dan King: [16:35] It's not an easy thing to adopt for most people. Jennifer Froemel: [16:37] And then on top of that, like, I think the other thing that I like to do is I like to bring us together. So probably since June, we've been hosting 30 minute huddles on Tuesday mornings. They're just via phone, but we all jump on. And I don't care if you're working out or, you know, getting your makeup on or whatever you're doing, as long as you're participating and you're listening, you're going to be able to do that. Those huddles are so awesome because they're team building, but on top of being team building, they're so educational because then I get to learn other little nuancy things that they're hearing about that they don't share readily. But they're sharing them readily now because we're talking so much more. And again, 30 minutes once a week, not that much time, but it has yielded a ton of, uh, guys, we need to look at that. Thanks for sharing today. Thanks for letting me know. I had no idea. Kinds of conversation. Dan King: [17:36] It's the kind of openness that can engender alignment, the alignment that is required to run a really great business and culture. Right. Jennifer Froemel: [17:44] And then of course, you know, I'm like, let's go, let's go do like a really nice lunch downtown, you know? And they're like, what? I'm like, yeah, let's go. Everybody, we're going to pick a date and we're going to meet. Jennifer Froemel: [17:55] We're not going to talk work. We're just going to enjoy our time together. Dan King: [17:59] You, having freed up so much of your time and space, I'm always struck when we speak by the work that you do in Nepal. This is one of the big things that you're I'm going to say newfound freedom because you've had it for some time, but the space that you've been able to create, one of the things that you do with it is you go to Nepal. This could be a cool thing for us to talk about, to inspire practice owners to think about what their juanas are. So we'd love to hear a little bit about what got you started on that journey and what you do there. Jennifer Froemel: [18:28] Well, so when I was 25, I had gotten very obsessed, probably for a good chunk of time about learning about Mount Everest. I think between then and turning 50 was really determined that when I turn 50, I'm going to trek to at least base camp. And not like that prior to this, I was doing a lot of trekking because I wasn't. I was a mom to a set of twins and, you know, my son who's three years older than the twins. And then again, growing this business when I turned 45 was like, hey, family, my husband and I, we're going to do this. You know, we're gonna go to nepal i've i've just always felt this pull my husband has also been obsessed about mount avarest and we were like we're gonna do this we're gonna we're gonna track all the way from katmandu. Jennifer Froemel: [19:16] And go to base camp. And then, of course, life continued to happen. And as I got closer to turning 50, we went to one of our friend's retirement parties out in Utah. So we were in the mountains. And our friend said, my sister, she's leaving for Nepal next month. And I said, what? So I went over, started talking with her. And she was like, Jen, you have to go. And the more that we talked, the more it was evident that it wasn't too far-fetched. my ability to go. And all I had to do was train. Like all I had to do was train. So I, you know, was like, I really want to do this, but I also really want to learn about a culture of Nepal. You know, from everything that I see and read about, I read about how the Sherpa people are just so happy, even though they, at the time when I left three years ago, they were deemed like the seventh poorest country in the world. They've actually moved up the ladder now. I think they're 20th. So that's good. They've definitely done some good things for themselves financially. Jennifer Froemel: [20:17] But I decided I really wanted to do this. My husband had started having some health issues and I said, I still want to go. And he was like, well, I guess if you still want to go, then like, I guess go find a person and go. So I did. I went online and found a group that my friend had mentioned from when she was in Nepal, I started planning my trip. I'd also always wanted to go to Thailand. And so they were asking, you know, in my creation of my itinerary, was there anything else I wanted to do while I was on the other side of the planet? And I did. So I ended up tacking on four days in Thailand for coming back to America. So I was gone for 24 days. Of. Jennifer Froemel: [21:06] Or airport time. And the thing that I was so lucky to do was I connected with a tour group called Social Tours. His whole, he's Nepali. Jennifer Froemel: [21:17] He's ironically married to an Austrian. I had studied abroad in Austria. That's why it's ironic. When we got together and sort of talking about my itinerary and my journey to base camp, we ended up discovering that he has a cousin who created a residential treatment center, which is totally not therapeutically common in the culture to deal with sexual abuse in adolescent and young girls. By the time I left, I was connected to her and started to really think about ways in which, you know, our practice, one of the pieces that I really believe in is giving back to those who can't. And so I have been giving pro bono services since day one of opening the door. And actually this week, Tuesday, was our beginning of our 12th year, our anniversary. Jennifer Froemel: [22:05] Every year we give away about 1,700 hours of free therapy. And so I thought, well, why not add Nepal to the list? And so started working with her and her residential treatment center on ways in which I can support them and help them. That's really where I'm at now. I went back recently and trained 25 people on how to use EMDR and other trauma-based tools. And of course, then there was the huge trauma that happened literally the day after I left Nepal for the Nepali people because of governmental issues and political unrest. And when I met with them recently, they all were so incredibly grateful at the timing of my teaching and coming to them. And so, you know, we're continuing our work together. Jennifer Froemel: [22:54] And now I'm actually contemplating because I've had five people ask if they could join me on a next adventure and we could maybe make our impact larger in terms of treating and supporting the communities there for domestic violence as well. I'm toying with that idea a little bit and, you know, seeing what that'll bring forward. But it was really amazing, you know, recognizing such cultural difference in so many ways, but recognizing so much similarity to, I would say, I mean, I say similarity because I'm familiar very much with working with collective cultures, with my background being bilingual and Spanish. And so working a lot with Latinos and other countries where they're more collective versus individualistic, like Americans. Jennifer Froemel: [23:41] And I just, just my heart felt so full leaving there. But my first time that I went, the thing that really, like, kind of blew my mind that I didn't think about was what would happen to me if something happened, right? And I didn't make it back from my trek. And I did get very, very sick while I was there the first time. I kind of got sick the second time, too, but I knew how to manage it. But the first time on my track, I mean, I had terrible fever, really bad gastrointestinal problems to where I really could have dehydrated and I really could have maybe not come back. And before I left, I created a succession plan with my attorney and they had the names of people to contact in the event that they had to sell the practice. Jennifer Froemel: [24:32] I had to create a bunch of things for, you know, my family. I had to develop a trust all before I left. Jennifer Froemel: [24:38] I'm not kidding. I literally signed it the day I left to head to Kathmandu. But now I have it. And now I review it annually. And that too feels so good to know that even if on my adventures into, you know, the wild Himalayas, I will be okay. The practice will be okay. Dan King: [24:57] I'm present to how each new layer of freedom unlocks a new need for responsibility and then vice versa. It's like, wow, okay, now there's a certain level of challenge in a journey abroad. There's greater risk, right? You've chosen to take that risk, but you've also thought about the impact on others. If I take the risk and things don't go according to plan, what happens, right? And so freedom and responsibility are like beautifully balancing each other. Jennifer Froemel: [25:23] So that's where we are these days. I love it. Dan King: [25:26] I love it. Well, that's a great place to be. And maybe we'll just end on a quick human note. I always like to ask people when you're not working on the practice, and I think you've answered this to some extent, but I'll ask it slightly differently for you. When you're not working on the practice and you're not doing important pro bono work abroad in Nepal, what do you do for fun? Jennifer Froemel: [25:46] I hang out with my family. We go camping. We go hiking. You know, we love having our own adventures as a family. Just hanging out in the kitchen and cooking and rescuing cats. I'm working on one right now. So, yeah, that's what I like to do. Move my body. Dan King: [26:02] That sounds pretty, pretty cool to me. Jennifer, awesome work you do in Chicago. Awesome work you do abroad. Thanks for sharing some of what you've been able to achieve. I hope it gives practice owners a chance to reflect on what they might do a little bit differently, how they might be able to unlock new layers of freedom and responsibility for themselves, because that's what it's all about. Jennifer Froemel: [26:24] It is.